STEPPLING-ZIMMERMAN: A DIALOGUE ABOUT THEATER WITH
This area is now open for replies to our piece "A dialogue on theater and contemporary arts (Part One)" All replies must be accredited by name and location, if possible, even if no registration is required. The administrator, CJO The original piece is found athttp://www.cjonline.org/stepplingZimmerTheater-1.cfm
posted by cyrano @ 2:27 PM
71 comments
71 Comments:
I was extremely impressed by this exchange between two people who seem to mirror well what many young artists (like myself) are feeling these days. I am surprised, actually NOT suprised, to discover that neither Zimmerman nor Stepling are yet widely known. Perhaps they might not like that either! I also find it scandalous, but again, not surprising, that our curriculums rarely include any reference to the Frankfurt School. I am glad that people like these authors keep the flame of real criticism alive.
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A most thought-provoking debate and one that has me going back to my encyclopedia...but well worth the many trips. I am glad that CJO ran a piece of this type. I only wish my friends and pupils would have enough brains to appreciate what is being said here...often with poetic clarity. I could quote the whole article, but this passage at the top, "I come back again and again to writers like Broch, and Ernst Bloch, and Adorno and Horkheimer** because they all sensed a process --- one that has intensified --- of masking (for lack of a better word) the inauthentic or puerile, the reactionary, as radical and serious. Hidden behind so much of what passes for serious work is just the same set of assumptions as one finds in detergent commercials or Cosmo articles on summer's new nail polish color. Looking back I sense this even in an Ibsen (Dan Polsby actually observed this recently) and I don't see it in, say, a Strindberg. That said, I also see how almost everything becomes co-optable. Artaud and Genet have not been co-opted yet, nor has Beckett --- but I wonder if they will eventually? It seems everything can be digested and shit out as its opposite..." kept me thinking if there is any hope for a civilization like America? With a system so adept at cooptation, with its chameleon-like powers to simulate all kinds of postures, there is literally no end to the potential hypocrisies. And if our most gifted people are ready to sell out for that big home in the 'burbs and the BMW, how does one get out from such a mess? The facist regimes of WW2 seem crude and elementary by comparison. And there is no party to channel transformative energies either. It's easy to think that nothing will rescue the world from this nightmare we call America but a world cataclysm. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic.
Since so few of us ever get to see a theater production (our loss I guess) the stage has become somthing of an upper-class activity in America, like going to the Opera. Broaway prices here in NYC are ripoff city. So the only thing we have is the celluloid stage. I wonder if Stepphling and Zimmernan will do a similar review of what is happening to that field that touches so many more people? I may be out of line, here, I don't know. Just an opinion. Still, much of what they say applies to actors and writers of plays for ANY stage, so this piece is very welcome.
What the writers say about the wholesale evasion of reality in the arts, especially the performing arts, is totally on target. This is an evasion in the responsibility of the artist to bear witness to history, I think. There's alot of posturizing in the modern theater, but little real challenge to the status quo, which deserves to be challenged at every turn. And in the cinema, riddled with constant mayhem and CGI for dumb male juveniles there's little if any connection with the underlying causes of so much social and psychic distress. (A guy who cynically exploits this trend big time and which I would drum out of Hollywood and tar is this guy Jerry Brukheimer (?), he produces all this "action" garbage and is also an unreconstructed brownosing chauvinist, along with Steven Bohcco...) As John Steppling warns, a true artist or serious agent for social change must be prepared to give up all aspiration to career or else s/he starts lame...Careerism is the siren song of meaningful moral art. Kudos to JS and GZ for telling it like it is and trying to walk the line.
An amazing read. Way better than the stuff I've read elsewhere on this topic. And despite the fact that the conditions described in this conversation are actually kind of grim, and the prospect of some vital transformation difficult, to say the least, the final impact (in my case) was one of relief. It confirmed my suspicions that the problem was not accidental but systemic. Keep it up Cyrano!
I've read with great interest and absorption (sorry about my English) this extraordinary article. As a teacher of drama in Chile, where the theater was dead for a very long time, as you probably know, I find it hard sometimes to inject a sense of interest in topics that one could describe as "neorealist". This is because most students (and the head of the faculty here--I work for a very conservative institutione) seem to be glued to the notion of "forgetting the past" , the social amnesia, and avoiding all hard realtiies. So you can see gentlemen that this social memory loss and escape from hard themes is an illness that affects all societies that are capitalistical at this time. So this is an obstacle to what we call "concientización"—many people in the middle class and certainly in the upper class are like this, but what really is not good is which is found now in the lower class, where evasion of reality and hunger for fantasy is growing. This is very bad. A new theater can possibly make a difference and the leftist parties are supoporting this, which is a great idea.
Frankly I was dissapointed by the general tone of this dialog. I thought it was too elitist for two people who see themselves as proletarian? Who in his right mind is going to spend years decoding all that stuff? It's heavy! And another point: Doesn't art with a political or moral content soon degenerate into a more convincing tool of the state? Social realism in the Soviet Russia produced mediocre art, if we can call it that...ditto in Germany under Hittler, so isn't it better to always leave the definition of art to the artists and let them figure out what art should be about? I think that art and politics and morality are different spheres, why else study them here (UNC) separately? They should never be mixed. There's wisdom there, and prudence which I don't see these writers exhibiting a great deal of. Plus, if you are so democratic why not let the people decide in the marketplace of ideas what they want to consume as art? Don't mean to piss anybody off but I just wanted to get this off my chest. I did find some things that were pretty clever, though. Thank you for your time.
I'm afraid I have to take issue with Cicero Maximos who says a number of things that are obviously wrong or unfair. I'm not fully qualified to rebut all his charges but they seem to me to smack of superficial analysis...First, I'd never use the word "never" companero. History has too many surprises. Ditto for "always" and "none." True, some examples of social realism, like, in monumental sculptures, from what I have seen (I have not visited Russia) seem a bit contrived and at times clearly "inferior" to other forms of art, but there is plenty of inferior art right here under our noses in our bourgeois culture. And we should not forget that art, being human, is always contextual (I read this someplace...) The monumentalism we see in Russian postwar art is reflective of what that great people endured in that conflagration. Not to mention the fact that, when it comes to art, we are almost always talking subjective evaluation. Furthermore, I think that great artists make great art, period. And that mediocre and lesser artists make art according to their talents. Second, it is not clear to me that the "marketplace of ideas" is the way to determine the actual worth of a piece of art or its relevancy to social conditions. By that gauge most of our greatest artists in literature, sculpture and painting would have failed the test—in fact, most DID fail the test in their time. Van Gogh, for example, died poor and mostly unrecognized. If he knew what his pictures are fetching today among the well-heeled he'd probably faint or...puke. Same can be said for some great actors, contemporary writers, and musicians. I just find this slavish idealization of the "market" ridiculous. The market can be wrong, and often is, especially when it is so heavily manipulated.
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A solid read. Learnt a great deal about things I had not thought about at all, but all the connections are there alright...and the historical precedents. Most illuminating. Sure hope you'll be doing more of this. It's fun to learn new political insights when things are explained this way. Would the authors publish a follow-up at some point indicating what playwrights they think are the worst in America today and how they reached that conclusion (specifically I mean).
Can anyone comment on whether theater under the FDR public-funded projects did any good to stimulate fine stage works? I have a blank in that area. I think that, so far, that's the closest we have come in our history to a semi-socialistoid experience for many artists, at least. By the way, I got a question for John Steppling. He says, "Since when did people need to get taught how to be writers? This in turn brings us around to the play as "product". One of the great things Mednick did at Padua was to insist on developing writers and not plays." This passage confuses me a bit. He seems to be deriding "teaching" students the basic writing skills, so I guess he's actually talking about the idea of teaching "real writing," stuff that's not just OK from an stylistic, structural or grammatical standpoint, but inspired. The caliber of writing that would make a person a "great writer" and another a mere scribbler. But, then, how does Mednick propose to "develop" writers? Via coaches? Via master/apprentice relationships? If so, isn't coach another word for "teacher"? I understand that ultimately great writers are born not made, I can accept that, but aren't even the best of writers giants who stand on the shoulders of other giants...or even lots of common folks, for that matter? I've always believed that although genius is undeniable, all human product is social. It is true in science, for example, and I daresay it holds true in the arts, too. Am I too far off the mark here?
Personally I refuse to go to the theater unless there is some production with some social content in it, not just merely titillation and "entertainment." This as you can gather means I don't go to the theater very often. I may be wrong on this, since, like most Americans, I don't know about the theater as much as I do about cinema (and even that I doubt considering the mass media's caliber of reportage) but I wonder what the great voices of the stage contribute or fail to contribute in terms of supporting some if not all of the points that you make here...I never heard, for example, the great Laurence Olivier say a word about the need for a stage with more resonant moral or political themes. He just sat back and enjoyed the laurels (no pun), along with John Gielgud and the rest of the anointed set...And, being proud of being "a working actor," whatever that may be, he did appear almost continually on the stage for a long time, often in totally escapist fare, like SLEUTH, etc. Same can be said @ other distinguished thespians...even, I suppose, of irreverent enfant terrible figures like Ian McKellen, whose flamboyant posturing as a gay man, make him something of a de facto radical in some reactionary circles...Since we're on this topic, are most actors like these...terminally bourgie these days? Is there some sort of significant difference between the American, British, French, Russian, Italian, Indian et al theatrical cultures? I expect that some variation is inevitable given locality and custom and history, but I wil be grateful for some insight into this area.
Amen to the prior post, and by the way I think a discussion on what makes actors tick or not tick these days is way overdue...are they as Hitchcock implied dumb beasts, the dumber the better? (The real quote is, I believe, "I never said actors were cattle. All I said is that actors should be treated as cattle"). A publishers log some time ago on this site said something, and I'm just paraphrasing because I can't find the original, that actors like Tom Cruise, for example, are exasperating. Not because of their arrogance (in this case his flatulent remarks about psychology, scientology, and all the rest of that mumbo jumbo) but because he embodied Ron Kovic so well in Born on 4th of July and then went on to inhabit again his own idiotic consciousness...How can that be? Maybe messrs Steppling & Zimmerman can provide some leads?
My take is that actors, writers an directors are just people and until the overarching structure of society changes they'll be overwhelmingly caught in its "zeitgeist" like everybody else...but this is like the chicken-egg question because if the more "conscious" and "sensitive" layers of society don't lead the rest into some sort of moral high ground..who will? I dont think you can get there by just bumbling your way through.
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The development, rather hyperdevelopment of commercial communications in the US has siphoned off a huge amount of talent, too, as people get bogged down for years in advertising and similar dead-end venues, or as mercenaries in Hollywood. Many of our greatest writers did a stint in Hollywood, as all of you probably know...in its ability to absorb and disarm the system is truly monstrous...
I don't want to sound like the inevitable feminist who spoils the party but I am surprised that this country--large as it is--has not produced any major female playwright. Does McCarthy qualify as the token?
I'd like to comment on some ideas in this blog from the feminist perspective...just kidding! First, a little about me: I am a playwright in Los Angeles who directs my own work. I studied with John Steppling, and greatly respect his intellect and talent, as well as Guy Zimmerman, who has been a mentor and peer to me.
I agree with much if not all of what was said between Zimmerman and Steppling. I don't feel it's good to dwell on some of the harsh realities for playwrights/artists who do work that for example, does not have an obvious social issues type of message, or, allows itself to be altered by a funding institution whose goals differ from the artist (if we get bitter, we won't continue our work). Unfortunately most of the time that can be the only way to get your work produced, but it is not the only way to do work. Ultimately, it has to be about the actual work and process, and artists that want to continue on have to remove money and career from their art. It is very hard, but thankfully the potency in the challenge of writing and theater is strong.
I do understand why people want "entertainment" as opposed to something that might bring them face to face with the unknown, death, the fragility of the self, or anything else that is a disturbing concept for humans. Since our predicament is relatively impossible to accept (we will lose everything, we will die, we have little control), I do see the need to escape and the desire to be entertained. As a species, we most certainly are neurotic and possibly need to be to survive on a daily basis. However, the total obliteration and repression of the above mentioned ideas is what often tends to happen; thus art or writing that confronts these issues is almost totally ignored, or at least not supported by the mainstream, and it is very unfortunate.
I fully agree with the idea that theater is about the offstage; only once will we actually be in the room where we will die for example, or be confronted with a reality so powerful we cannot deny it (a loved one dying). These truths exist largely in the unknown (until we know them); another dimension perhaps. The struggle the self goes through to avoid them is beautiful drama, and the hintings at the real terrors that occur offstage are fascinating parts of a mobile say, that the audience's mind and imagination must put together. Theater is not about answers but questions, and glimmerings, and the struggle of language to communicate what is human, and to attempt to articulate experience. For me as a writer, theater is the most exciting, terrifying and dangerous place to be.
Theater is definitely a dream state. The exciting thing is we know more than we think we know (unconsciously, although we can't always really grasp it). Theater illuminates this struggle, as well as the struggle with the self.
I agree that real beauty is terrible, dark, sublime and mysterious. We know it but it's not exactly tangible or explainable. Fabulous!
Yes (to quote Zimmerman and Steppling again), tragedy subjects a personality to enormous stress and forces a collapse. I would love to talk more about this; a collapse into what? Something totally different? A new "self"? More "knowledge" than before?
And, audiences aren't just the group of people sitting in the chairs watching the play. Plays/language transcends even the actors, who are a sort of exoskeleton only. The work is outside us all (mysterious), even the ones speaking it or writing it, and so we are all the audience. Actors may just have one more foot "in," than we do. But the question of what is it that actors are doing is totally compelling.
I would like to get your thoughts on the future fall of Western Civilization/our culture. Just where will this rampant consumerism, fear and insecurity (fueled by advertising) take us? Is there any hope?
Great discourse, and I look forward to more!
Sharon Yablon
I'm ashamed to say that after living in the L.A. area for a while (only recently came to Europe on assignment) and being a self-defined theater person, I never heard of the Padua group and its main figures...My loss I suppose. I just wanted to congratulate the writerss of the main article, Steppling and Zimmerman for their insight...and my special thanks to Sharon (Yablon) in this comment chain for her extremely interesting post. I hate to say it but some of these folks on this blog make me wonder if all those years I spent in a fancy college were not a total waste of time, not to mention scheckels...they sound to me like they could be writing too. I don't know if this website's audience is composed mostly of artists and writers? Obviously it's very political and certainly you mince no words. I did a google on modern history and eventually ended up here...will bookmark for future ref. A very unusual site. Refreshing. One thing: In Europe you sometimes see pieces that have their thematic grounding in history, not just contemporary history, like WW2, etc., but even more remote historical periods...and it does very well with the audiences. I saw a play in Spain a couple of years ago that was very thought-provoking, by a relatively "minor" playwright, Argonceda (?), not totally sure about the spelling, and it was a (my opinion) successful blend of recent Spanish history explorations (Franco, wars, democracy, freedom, religion, women, etc., an almost impossible brew of big topics) but he pulled it off...with a good anchoring in individual characters. It didn't sound forced or preachy, as if the characters were no more than pretexts to dish out a line...Probably the didactic theater is one of the toughest challenges. Anyway. Good luck to all.
PS. As you probably know, most Europeans are aghast at the images floating in on Katrina. A lot of it is schadenfreude, of course. But if we certainly produce our idiots, they have produced some of the biggest too...
Wow! This para from Yablon blew me away: "I do understand why people want "entertainment" as opposed to something that might bring them face to face with the unknown, death, the fragility of the self, or anything else that is a disturbing concept for humans. Since our predicament is relatively impossible to accept (we will lose everything, we will die, we have little control), I do see the need to escape and the desire to be entertained. As a species, we most certainly are neurotic and possibly need to be to survive on a daily basis. However, the total obliteration and repression of the above mentioned ideas is what often tends to happen; thus art or writing that confronts these issues is almost totally ignored, or at least not supported by the mainstream, and it is very unfortunate. Impeccably summarized. Explains why the left always has such a load to carry upstream...truth and goodness may be on our side but we are at loggerheads with our neurotic wiring...guess who benefits from this...
I'm afraid everything has already been said...and mighty clearly, too, so just let me register here my unreserved admiration for a an inspiring piece of work. And thanks Ms. Yablon for your touching words, too.
Why can't or won't modern American playwrights create dramas where the protagonists are involved in revolutionary action instead fo just existential navel-gazing?
The dialogues are good to get behind the creative screen, about which I was always curious...I mean how do these writers really conceptualize things before committing to paper? I just wish the material was served a little bit more plainly for us folks with less than 200 IQs.
the dilemma of revolutionary writers and real social critics seems to me that they are constantly dealing with a very narrow audience which, ironically, in most cases, is not composed of those who might actually get into the streets and do something...During an actual social ferment, revolutionary period, of course, their materials will be seen by broad audiences...thereby deepening the process. Meanwhile I suppose it's ghetto life for these authors. BTW I'm hoping to see more dialogs of this sort in which we examine in more detail the psychology and sociology of actors, contradictory creatures that remain the tip of the stage mystery.
I agree with ronster in that while the mental framework of the playwright may be more or less clear considering his footprints, that of actors is pretty much incomprehensible. This is certainly an area that deserves more attention.
"Tragedy is about man's suffering before the fact. I wonder at the reasons for how sentimentality has replaced any impulse for the tragic? Is it in Coriolanus that someone says 'there is always an elsewhere'? I could have that wrong....but I like that quote. What is off stage is elsewhere; it is fleeing and inarticulate and mysterious. I think when the lights come up on the first scene in a play; something has just left, and the rest of the play is an attempt to catch up with it, to pursue it... Wow. This passage alone is worth the price of admission. Thanks, JStep!
I was impressed by that passage too, as paulfromakron. I wonder if Steppling is thinking also of the fact that no moral progress is possible without suffering? Actually, I think it's even in the Bible...where the prophet says that the house of mirth leads nowhere. Then again I might be missing the point here. Any thoughts anyone?
My memory may not serve me well but if I recall correctly Norman Mailer sponsored a convict-author about 15 years ago, who wrote a book (I can't recall his name!), became momentarily the darling of chic society and then vanished from teh stage. He reminds me of jean genet, and his sponsorship by some of the leading French intellectuals (and prominent homosexuals) except that the latter was the real deal.
I've always thought that the theater was inherently more elitist than the cinema, hence dramatists should, when possible, attempt screenplays rather than stage treatments. I say this because the theater, at least structurally, seems to me much more apt to be constructed around a tribalistic/chief model, requiring a far smaller contingent of human resources than a cinematic enterprise. Cinema is structurally socialistic: there are literally scores if not hundreds of specialists and subspecialists working in all areas of the production—music, scripting, location, editing, photography, stunts, sfx, etc.— and therefore no director can claim total authorship unless he's willing to deny these contributions...A film by its very nature must be a work of complex collaboration. Maybe am being Lamarckian here. The preceding must not be interprteted as me saying that I deny any film director can put his stamp on his work and make it his "own," very distinctive, and that, at least by tradition, he's entitled to. That's obvious. There are a million exampes of "directorial style." I'm just saying—I guess this sukker doesn't come easy—that cinema syntax is almost always likely to generate the need for larger assemblies of artists.
As an aspiring writer.playwright who has produced nothing yet (continually distrustful of my own quality, my own isngihts, I guess) I find Mr Zimmernan"s words haunting, the difference between melodrama and tragedy is the crucial distinction that progressive theater in the States has lost sight of. Melodrama is trivial, no matter what the subject matter. Tragedy, assuming it's well done, is profound regardless of subject matter. In the name of the civil right movement(s), progressives have embraced melodrama, and the result is an art form that, despite its stated intentions, actually serves a conservative agenda. I wish more people saw this duality for what it is and especially those who are honestly attempting to build a new space for the performing arts in this nation. I would also like to see some further elaboration on this theme. I realize that some may find that a bit egostistical (on my part) but I frankly see a larger value for any reader.
Mr. Z is saying that actors know all there is to know...etc., I suppose he's talking here about actors acting as "channels" for the zeitgeist and not that they really know all there's to know (hyperbole aside) since most actors are idiots. The guy who really might know anything is the writer and the director. I recall that famous part in ALL ABOUT EVE where the playwright says to Channing I believe that (Im paraphrasing here) the piano doesn't write the music...
trifulca has it right. Was it Hitchcock who said that actors are Cattle? Actually, just looked it up: He said that actors were NOT cattle but that they should be treated as cattle!
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